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Episode Description
“Was that therapy? You didn’t even do therapy with me, did you?”
That’s what one young client asked Lydia Schneider, LCSW. To him, it was play. To her, it was the work.
Hosts Ashley Charbonneau and Morgen Villegas talk with Lydia about child-centered play therapy. Kids’ brains aren’t built for talk therapy yet, so they heal through play. A Minecraft story can carry grief. A panda bear can say what a child can’t.
Lydia also shares how she lost 2,600 supervised hours, started over, and helped build a private practice collective rooted in “people over profit.”
In this episode:
Why talk therapy doesn’t work for young kids
Why play therapists use statements, not questions
Teaching DBT skills through Dungeons & Dragons
How parent work helps families see their child’s world
How a therapist collective keeps private practice sustainable
Healing starts when people feel seen. Sometimes it starts on the playroom floor.
GUEST BIO
Lydia Schneider, LCSW, is a play therapist in Colorado Springs, where she was born and raised. She helps children, teens, and families heal from trauma, anxiety, depression, and grief. She also supports kids with self-esteem, identity, and relationship struggles.
Lydia has advanced training in Child-Centered Play Therapy. She also draws on EMDR, TF-CBT, DBT, Narrative Therapy, and TBRI. She earned her MSW from the University of Colorado Colorado Springs.
As part of The Heartspace Collective, Lydia creates spaces where kids feel safe and families grow closer. Learn more at theheartspacecollective.com.
CHAPTERS
[0:00] Introduction and Welcome
[0:55] Lydia's Career Journey in Social Work
[5:27] Finding Heartspace Kids and Private Practice
[8:02] Delighting in Clients and the Therapist Bond
[9:07] Child Centered Play Therapy and Neuroscience
[10:02] Parent Work and Supporting Families
[20:42] Building a Collective Practice
[23:29] Closing Reflections and Gratitude
Transcript
Morgen V.: Welcome back to The Art of Being a Therapist: The Space Between Training and Real Life. I'm Morgan.
Ashley C.: And I'm Ashley. And today, again, we're diving into the question, what actually makes a good therapist, with our lovely guest, Lydia. Welcome.
Lydia S.: Hi. Hi. How's it going? I'm Lydia Schneider. I'm an LCSW. I specialize in child-centered play therapy. And yeah, it's good to see you guys. I know Ashley from a long time ago, so this is awesome to see her again. So cool.
Morgen V.: Lydia, if you can just walk us through a little bit about what drew you to the social work profession initially and what your career has looked like, and you're welcome to expand on any kind of aspect of that or just speak generally about what feels relevant with that anchoring question.
Lydia's Career Journey in Social Work
Lydia S.: Yeah. never thought I'd be here. Never thought when I was, two years ago. But I was sociology, and I did gender studies, and I originally wanted to do elementary ed. And it circles back because now I work with kids, which is great. But it's in a totally different way, and I am a teacher really. That's really what I am.
So it's really cool. But how in 2020, got laid off from a few jobs and was like, "I need to go back to school. I need to get my master's. What in?" Looked into all the programs. Social work was one of those that's like you can just go, and there's so many different opportunities. there's just a wide range.
It's not like counseling. It's not like a psychologist or anything. So I was just like, "Yep, I wanna do social work." And my heart is such a social worker. I see so many things. I'm like, "Oh, there's a system here, and there's this, and we can fight this, and we can do this together." So I did do macro for a long time, working with nonprofits.
I did program management, and then I was like, "I wanna try individual." So I had grad school from 2020 to 2022, and my last year I did an internship for a group practice. And so I worked with individuals, and it was really cool 'cause our program was trauma-informed. Specifically, I looked for an internship there because they were working with clients who have experienced trauma, and they were really high acute.
So I loved it. I thought I learned so much. I did jump in not knowing anything. I was like, "Okay, hire me," but I didn't know anything. And just working with the one-on-one, I just learned a lot. I love developing those relationships. I think that is... I'm gonna talk a lot probably about that because a good therapist to me is just developing those strong bonds where you just know that person, and you just, you like delight in them.
I love that about being a therapist. You just get to delight in their journey and who they are, and it's just, it's so beautiful. So I did that internship, and then I graduated in 2022. And I think looking back, I was stressed from grad school. I wanna graduate. I wanna be done. Take the test. Oh, this is also at the time where you could take the test right after.
And so I was like, "Let's just do that. Get everything out of the way." But I think I didn't look into other opportunities, 'cause I just got offered the job at the internship. So I think looking back, I think I could've been like, "Okay, there's way more." And I do wanna hone in on that for other social workers.
Just know there's so much out there. Go interview, go talk to other social workers. do that because don't just think that this is it, this is where I'm at, this is the best money. talk around, 'cause I did not do that. Then I was with this private group practice owner, and it just felt really good at the time 'cause I didn't know what was good.
So looking back, I feel like I thought, "Oh, this is exactly what it should be." And then near the end it was like all us workers there, and social workers, and LPCs, they were like, "This isn't right." We started talking about it, and then I went to a meetup with a bunch of therapists, and that's when I was like, "Hey, this is happening at this place," and it wasn't right.
And I was like, "I'm not getting paid," and it just started adding up, really adding up at the end. So I worked there two and a half years, and starting in 2024 it got really ugly. So yeah, it was so bad. I resigned, and then the day after she fired me and dropped all my clients, and it put it on me that I abandoned them, and it was just really hard, 'cause I was like, I gave you a month, and I wanna do this the right way," and it wasn't good.
It felt horrible. Good thing is that 10 of the clients found me, so even though she took me off everything, so it was really hard at the end. And then I realized I had money that she owed me and hours that she needed to sign, and so I got a lawyer and just was like, "I'm gonna fight this. This isn't right."
Which no one else had done, and so I think that's another thing I wanna just encourage people, if you think, "Oh, no one else done, they're scared of it," just do it anyway. I really was like, "I'm not letting this net of fear take over of me. I'm getting through this fear. I need the justice to be served." And that's my social work side.
So I got a lawyer. We fought this and I met Ashley after that, and she helped me so much through it, 'cause I was like, "Ashley, this is happening." So we fought a long battle, but at the end I got- My money that I was owed back through the court, but I did not get the hours signed. So it was about 2,600 hours and about two and a half years of work, and I just
Finding Heartspace Kids and Private Practice
Lydia S.: redid it.
In 2024, I did find Heartspace Kids, and that is when my career... I found a family was in the coworkers, and they were all in the same mission of people over profit. And I could just see their heart was in it, and it was just so beautiful. I found them and I started working there. Grew just to love the practice and everything, and I just started over with my hours.
Had such great supervision. Ashley's one of them. And just such great consultation groups, and we were just all about these clients, and I just loved it. About a year and a half into that, the boss at the time, she was like, "Hey, guys. I don't want employees. I wanna go back to school eventually. I don't know what to do."
And we were like, "We love this place. We love it so much. We need to keep it the same. We need to." And so I was just gonna get licensed in July, and I just said, "Yeah, let's all go into private practice. Let's all be a collective and stay the same, but we're just private practice now." And so that transition was crazy and it's been so helpful.
I did Ashley's How to Start a Private Practice with Kara, and it was just so helpful. And then I got so much advice from other private practice owners of how to start this, how to do this, and I felt confident. And then I think the cool part was that Dina left us everything, like all the furniture and all the resources.
The other place was so gatekept, and I think going back to what a good therapist is, I wanna honor that I have all this knowledge, what I know, and give it to you. But since private practice, I've gotten confidence in myself and competent, but I'm also giving back. So there was a intern with us, and she didn't start her private practice till later, and she just constantly asked me things.
And I was like, "Here's what I know. Here you go." And then I got an intern from UCCS, the program I was in, this last January, and I cried 'cause she wrote this letter of just "Thank you for just giving me everything and letting me have that." I just, I'm an open book. I'm not going to close off anything.
It doesn't matter to me. It's not for money. It's not for any of that. It's just because, we're social workers. We're here for each other. we are together. So that was really cool. But yeah, that's how I got here, and now I'm s- in private practice. I have another intern coming and the intern I've had, she's going to be a part-time employee.
Ashley C.: Oh my gosh, Lydia. I know. You just shared so much more than I ever knew about you, and- Oh ... I'm just so proud of you. It's like you learned that abundance mindset rather than the scarcity one. I just think that shows the resiliency that you've developed in the face of the adversity that you had to deal with in that
Delighting in Clients and the Therapist Bond
Ashley C.: agency.
Morgen V.: I wanted to circle back to when you said the strong bonds and the delight that you take with your clients and their journey. Can you tell us more about that? How do you hold that perspective? I think every client that I have, I'm like, wow, they have this whole world and self that I get to see. I just love it.
Lydia S.: I just want more of it. I just ask more questions, and I wanna learn more about them, and I follow their lead. I think that is something that a good therapist, they follow their lead. You ask the client, they know. They know all the things, even if you're not saying it. They know, and so just trusting in them so much.
And I've just been like, I love these people. They come in as human, and yeah, they're in their most raw, vulnerable states Love every second of it. I get, like, how honored I am to be in their presence and get to experience life in that way with them. Every day I'm like, "Oh my gosh, that was awesome." And with kids, it's even crazier.
Child Centered Play Therapy and Neuroscience
Lydia S.: So I don't know if you know much about kid, and neuroscience or brain development, but it's really interesting 'cause they don't talk therapy. Kids aren't talk therapy 'cause they don't have the prefrontal cortex to talk. So they are all about symbolic play. Everything they do is through play, how they express themselves.
If they talk, usually it's because they've heard a parent or another adult say something, they're like, "Oh, that's a mirror neuron," they're just, repeating it. Their self comes out through play, and I just get to experience their play with them and get to be in their world in it, and it is the coolest thing ever.
When I'm in play, I'm the character in a multi-galaxy world domination. And we're, like, going through these themes that they're working through in this huge way, and I get to experience it with them. And then I get to be like, "I love this child," through all of what they've gone through. They're so innocent and beautiful and it's just, it's wonderful and pure.
Parent Work and Supporting Families
Lydia S.: And I do have to say, I think parent work is so important. It's essential. It was so cool to see how the parent interacted with the kid. What I did find the most with parents is they do not try to understand their kid or be with them in their world. They're very much on their own agenda. And so teaching parents to be like, "Actually, this kid has so much to teach you, and we just gotta listen.
You really just have to deeply listen and try to understand their world," and it's through, play is so much easier to do that with. So I would have this like, "Hey, we're gonna play in this way or do this activity," so I could see the parents play. And then we separated the kids and parents, and I got to do the play therapy and my cohort got to do the talk and be like, "Okay, look at what you guys saw.
Here's some ways that your kid needs you." I do have to say, a lot of parents will be like, "Hey, talk about this or do this," and I'll be like, "Hey, remember what we said?" Kids don't talk and, I'm going to be there, to support the kid, like, where they're at. I'm not gonna bring up, "Oh yeah, your parent had this thing going on.
How do you feel?" that is so not of anything I do. And so it's just really cool to learn and grow, and I have a lot to still learn. but- I really appreciate you naming what makes a good therapist for adults is very different than what makes a good child therapist. They don't have that prefrontal cortex, so talk therapy isn't gonna work, right?
You can't just teach someone decision-making or thought-feeling behavior chain if their brain literally isn't developed for that yet. And I think a lot of times systems blame the kid, "Oh, you're not making progress." I really appreciate you naming that because it is a whole different type of therapy It is.
Oh, it's a totally different type of therapy, and you have to be in kid culture. Get on their level. You have to know that they don't know time. Their brain doesn't understand time, so how you do time is really important. You do bells, and you do things. Adults just don't have that until they're really ingrained or work with kids so much- especially as a therapist. So I totally agree. It is a totally different world. I love it. It is my passion to just work with these kids. But when I went back to my grad school, they didn't teach us anything with kids, right? They didn't teach us how kids' brains work. It was all adults. Even the neuroscience part was all with adults.
And so it's really interesting, 'cause it has been just training, podcasts, books, like insane amount of reading books, and then actually being with a kid is so different. Once you get that background knowledge of how their brain is developed, how they're so much more like it's bottom up, they literally develop from bottom up, and they're imaginative, and they're just living in their limbic system, which is really cool, too.
I just let the child lead a lot of ti- but people are like, "Oh my God, you don't do anything." Like- Yeah ... once they actually get to experience it, they're like, "Oh my gosh, you do so much. You don't even realize." So you're with the kid. You're, like, reflecting all their feelings. I have kids. They're like, "Why you talk like that?"
'Cause I don't talk in a question, 'cause kids' prefrontal cortex isn't developed, so questions don't mean anything, so it's all statements. And so it's all wow, you're really feeling like, you're missing mom right now, or something like deeper and just w- with these big themes of wow, that panda bear really needs his dad.
You're just going into these themes with them. It's just really cute. And then I think there's so many skills that I take in that help develop a child's emotion regulation, empathy, coping skills, like constantly. it's not that I'm just, "Hey, here's this coping skill." I don't do anything for a kid that they can do for themselves, so it happens in every session where they're just like, "Here, help me," and I'm like, "You know what?
You can do that." And then you watch them, and even if they get frustrated, I just sit there with them in their emotion and their frustration, and then you realize that they do a coping skill. Some run around like crazy. And then you can tell the parents, "Oh my gosh, they have this outlet." So you learn through those experiences with those kids.
You know I'm not teaching them, here's how to problem solve step by step. I'm showing them, oh, here's this issue. You can figure it out. You're gonna learn one way or another. You're gonna put it down, come back to it, and problem solve that way. So they learn themselves. I am a big believer in child-centered.
Every kid is going towards self-actuali- lizing. They all want to be the best self they can. And so I just go with that and it works. It's so beautiful. The results I've had is just amazing. The things I've seen in the playroom, some kids will come in with stories, and some stories they're playing this lore through Minecraft, but it's all connected to their dead father or something.
You're like, h- how? You really are just playing out exactly what you need to do. But my job is guiding them in that journey of hey, there's this, and guess what? It's part of your story, and that's okay, and you're making it symbolic, which is great, and let me just put it in reality. This is what you're going through and working on.
Morgen V.: And a lot of the examples you just shared show the art of therapy, right? Therapy for a lot of adults is talking and verbal processing, and I love that you're describing it's actually very creative, and our clients are extremely creative. They are able to Tap into their internal world in their own unique way.
And I think sometimes we block that with language. It is very difficult for me to tap into that for myself, let alone my adult clients sometimes. And then once I'm in it, I'm like, wow, this is a big part of my true self, someone who wants to play and be. It just seems so incredibly in tune with your clients.
Ashley C.: I keep circling back to the word delight. I'm a tired mama. I can't always get that, and so it's like a therapy session with that would be just a rejuvenating kind of experience. I don't think just for the kiddo, but also for me to be like, oh, wow, there's someone that really believes that my kid's brain is so special.
Lydia S.: Let me hear more about this. I wanna know more. How do I expand my own capacity to sit with that understanding and that compassion with my kids too? So you're at that crux of supporting the kids and then also the parent. Your joy, it's completely contagious. Yeah, it is. The cool part too is one thing about play therapy is just you have these parent consultations three to five weeks, and you'll be with the parent and you'll be explaining, "So your kid at home is like this, right?"
And they're like, "How do you know that?" They're like, "How do you know so much? It's been three weeks with my kid." I'm like, "Yeah, your kid plays out everything. I know them." It's pretty cool, and they're all just shocked. "Wow, you know all that from just seeing for three weeks?" I'm like, "Yeah, I do. I do." I feel like my personality's so kid-like, it's so fun and energetic, so to put parents there too it's just that mirror neuron.
They're just like, "Oh, yeah, okay, I can be like that with my kid. We can be goofy. Do you wanna do a spin to the classroom, or do you wanna jump? This will actually help your kid learn he can have choices and control in his life, but in just such fun ways." It's the best job. Didn't know I'd be here, so it's really cool.
Morgen V.: Yeah. I love that you name how well we know our clients. Oh. I think that is something that is seriously- Un- understated and undervalued by people outside the field, for sure. Sometimes I don't realize how well I know a client or how attuned I am with a client until I'm staffing a case or seeking consultation.
And even just describing the therapeutic relationship or the presenting problem, sometimes it does hit me, oh my gosh, I know a lot about this client. And it sounds like that's what you're also trying to explain in the context of your work. Yeah. You're talking about, the artistry of being a therapist, right?
Yeah. It's like you create, you learn the tools and then you have to adapt based on the client's needs or expression. That's such an important point that you're naming, and also feeling comfortable with that. not necessarily adhering to the rigidity of some of the theoretical frameworks that we were either taught or apparently not taught, right?
Just depending on where it happened. Yeah. What I'm hearing is a key to all this work is to be client-centered, really meet the client where they are. Client for you meaning the kiddo and essentially the family system, right? And figuring out what serves and what helps and what would create a shift.
Lydia S.: And deeply listening and understanding from each different perspective, and figuring that out. It's like a blueprint for each person. I think of an example of this. There's this 10-year-old boy, does not wanna play, right? he's "What are we doing? Okay, can we play this ball?" I do this Dungeons & Dragons with dialectical behavior therapy, and I did it for so many sessions, but what's been happening is that I've been using those skills.
I can pretty much create this world where I'll have the map and all the little miniatures, and I'll just have it out for them. And then they get really into it and it's so cool. And I've had sessions with these little boys, they come out, they're like, "Dad! You know what we did?" And I just use my skills in that, in Dungeons- Dragon.
it just a one-on-one session with a kid that needs more being able to be creative and get out there and be symbolic, and their character is always a part of them. You can always- Always ... match it back to an IFS part. They just do that automatically, like they don't even realize it. Yes. So it's just really cool.
Every client is different. It's nuanced. Really is. It really is. And they're like, "When is the next session? When is our next session? What are we doing next?" Can we keep going in that? And they're so excited about it. One kid was like, "Was that therapy? You didn't even do therapy with me, did you?" They play out their life, and they get better.
I've had a mom start crying. She's like, "I got my kid back. I got my child back." Our work is so fulfilling. I think it's important to just take that in, to acknowledge it as a therapist. You do the good work. I love that, and we know that one person makes a difference in a child's life. Changing one person's life changes another person's life, changes another person's life, changes another person's life.
Morgen V.: And I think something that is so inspiring to me is you are changing people's lives at a very young age, and you're intervening sometimes before cycles of abuse continue. Whereas for those of us who work with adults, sometimes we're getting them much later than clients that you see. And so I'm continually inspired by you and people who do the work that you do because you're intervening early.
You're doing prevention work. And I love that you said a lot of your clients are like, "When do we get to meet next?" And I think that is a sign of good rapport and of a good therapist. Can you tell us more about how that collective is a scaffold for you, the collective of therapists that you're working with, and how that supports you in your sustainable practice?
Building a Collective Practice
Lydia S.: Oh, yeah. They're amazing. I would recommend any budding private practice to have a collective because I think what you hear with other therapists in private practice is "I don't see enough other therapists." Since the collective, we have our group, we have a consultation group with each other, and so that's really cool.
And then we give each other like, "Here's a client might work for you," so we really know each other as therapists. I think that's a cool part too about our collective is the community. And just to clarify, a collective is when you all have your own private, like LLC or S corp. But you have a shared space, and consultation together, and maybe a similar mission and purpose- Yeah
which is the overall umbrella. Yeah, that's exactly it. We have very similar values, so we refer clients to each other. There's so much we do for each other. So different populations that you all work with? Yeah. So you work with kids, and then other folks would work with adults, and then maybe teens, or is it all kids?
We all work with kids in the col- Okay ... we're all very child-centered. It's really cool, So it seems like that value of abundance, right? It started with each of you individually, and then you worked in the group practice, and then you ended up creating the collective because that group practice closed.
Morgen V.: But it still has sustained itself because there's this referral in the collective. And so that means, I'm naming this, right? That's also part of good therapy, the sustaining of referrals, right? Sounds like a guardrail for you as a clinician there, too. Yeah. It is. That's a really good way to put it.
Lydia S.: I haven't thought about it like that, but it is a guardrail. And we help each other. We can bring in any person to the collective. We do have very kid-centered values. That's so awesome. And I think something else I wanna name is when we do have an abundance mindset and we do have financial stability or financial success, we are able to offer things either pro bono or sliding scale.
Ashley C.: And for me, that's been a difficult balance to establish and reestablish and re-figure out over the years. But I think that's also what has made me a good clinician is I do want to give back, but I also don't want to be taken advantage of or give away my expertise all the time for free. But I think when we have that abundance mindset, it's less stressful for me to have to sort out being in abundance versus scarcity allows me to judge myself less and judge my practice, my business less, and just be more open to, okay, how do I help other people?
Lydia S.: Yeah. And what does that look like in a way that's not so narrow? We have Kids First Fund, and it's part of the nonprofit that Dean had started. We wanna give kids free therapy if they need. Sure. Part of my values and journey to give back that way. Thank you so much for sharing about your experience and your journey, and I just, I feel like a part of me healed today.
Closing Reflections and Gratitude
Ashley C.: Aw. It just felt- Me too ... like really incredible. I was getting tearful with the way that you're describing your experience. I'm gonna cry now. Aw. your experience with kids and just how impactful that can be 'cause I just think- You're welcome ... my own kids and, like, how loved they would feel. Aw.
Morgen V.: Thanks. I do love these kids. Thank you for having me. Whether you're working with children, adults, or somewhere in between, today's conversation is a reminder that healing begins where people feel seen, understood, and accepted. Thank you so much for joining us for The Art of Being a Therapist. Until next time, take care.
