Powered by RedCircle
Episode Description
You finished grad school. You know the theories. So why does your first year of practice feel like nobody told you the real rules?
In this first episode of The Art of Being a Therapist, licensed clinicians Ashley Charbonneau and Morgen Villegas talk about the gap between training and real clinical work. They walk through the early career assumptions that tripped them up, like the idea that therapy has a clear end point, or that their job was to fix clients instead of helping them find their own resources.
They also get honest about how agency and institutional pressure can squeeze the authenticity out of a new therapist, why attunement can't be learned from a textbook, and how letting their own humanity into the room made them better at the work.
If you're a grad student or a new clinician, you'll hear yourself in this one. If you've been doing this a while, you'll remember.
CHAPTERS
[0:00] Introduction & Welcome
[2:03] Early Career Assumptions
[3:51] The Myth of an Endpoint in Therapy
[5:37] From Problem Solving to Stillness
[7:05] Limits of Therapy Education
[9:24] The Blank Slate Therapist
[11:24] Navigating Systems and Authenticity
[15:06] Defining Good Therapy
Transcript
Ashley C.: Welcome to The Art of Being a Therapist: The Space Between Training and Real Life. Hi. So we're really gonna be getting into what actually makes a good therapist and what does good therapy look like in real life, not necessarily in textbooks or Instagram or TikTok, y'all. This podcast explores the space between theory and real clinical work.
It is going to be addressing what ambiguity looks like, what happens when we make mistakes, how we grow, the systems that shape therapy, and then all the parts of ourselves as human beings that show up, whether we want them to or not. So excited to be here. Me too. I'm Ashley Charbonneau. I am a licensed clinical social worker in Colorado.
Much of my clinical expertise lies in working with individuals impacted by the criminal legal system, grounded in a commitment to survivor healing and offender accountability with a restorative justice focus. I also teach and supervise and train. I love to read, I love to write, and I love diving into these conversations with my fellow podcaster, Morgan.
Morgen V.: Okay, it's gonna be hard to follow that one, Ashley. I am also in Colorado. I'm a therapist and consultant, and now I'm a podcaster. I specialize in providing EMDR and IFS, working with women navigating anxiety, trauma, perfectionism, and late diagnosed ADHD. I also train therapists in integrating IFS with EMDR and love providing consultation and support.
My work centers the space between what we're taught and what actually happens in therapy. There's so much complexity and humanity in between all the lines. That's what we're here for today, to get into that and dive in today and in future episodes. Between the two of us, we bring over 25 years of experience working with trauma.
Early Career Assumptions
Ashley C.: We're here to have the conversations we wish we had earlier in our careers. This is our first episode, and we are going to focus on early career assumptions. We talk about what good therapy is, that was defined early on in our careers, and what we think about what it means to be a good therapist now. So Morgan, do you wanna start us off on one of the assumptions you had as a graduate student, or even before then, or where you were at earlier in your career in terms of what you thought being a helper looked like or a good therapist looked like?
Morgen V.: Yeah. You already named it. I think probably my first day of grad school it was, "Why do you wanna be a social worker? Why do you wanna be a therapist?" And it's like, I wanna help people, right? I wanna help people feel better. Probably there were parts of me that felt like I could fix people. I have a much deeper understanding of what that means now, which I'll maybe get into later.
This initial draw to that piece, I still think that it likely exists in graduate school programs where people think that's really what this work is. But I think you and I both know that it really takes a complete shift. Yes, of course, we want to support people, but ultimately we're helping people tap into their own internal resources to help themselves.
I think early on in graduate school, in college, I really thought there was- An end, quote unquote, to someone's journey of feeling better. And so from our perspective as social workers or helpers, I really thought there was an end point to helping people, and that's not real life.
The Myth of an Endpoint in Therapy
Morgen V.: We are constantly growing.
We are constantly learning. We're constantly triggered. And I think that means helping people or being the person who's being helped, that is so iterative. It's not a start and a finish point. Graduate school teaches or what internships teach is a treatment plan. there is this starting point and end point, and it took me a long time to almost undo that mindset or c- reconceptualize what it means to help someone It's almost like there's some kind of medicalized perspective of that treatment plan, right?
Where you're coming into therapy, you're meeting a goal, and then you're done. And that's essentially what brought me into this field, was I did work in a clinic, and that was their perspective of, let's just do solution-focused work, and we'll just give folks..." Essentially, I'm not trying to bad-mouth solution-focused therapy, but it doesn't align with the work that I do now.
I feel like a Band-Aid. It's a perspective that I just don't align with anymore. We are constantly evolving. Our needs are changing, and our mental health and our internal world is shifting. There can't necessarily be a beginning, middle, and end to mental healthcare or therapy necessarily. I might not be working with someone for their entire life, but I could be a chapter of their life, and it could bridge a client to something that they want to get to in their life.
Ashley C.: I could maybe just be planting a seed or work- while working alongside them, but it's not like there's that concrete perspective of, "Oh, yeah, let's just meet this goal, and then you're good, and you're on your way." And to your point about solution-focused- ... not trying to knock a specific modality, but early on in my career,
From Problem Solving to Stillness
Ashley C.: I really jumped to intervening.
I really jumped to problem-solving. I really jumped to, "Okay, what are some action steps we can take?" I really jumped to almost, pushing forward. I, myself, as the clinician, felt like I needed to always be moving the client forward in some way. I feel like I've almost come 180 from that, where I'm able to sit in stillness, sit in silence.
I'm able to encourage the client to slow down. I think that's hard to teach, hard to capture in an education program, and I don't know that I would've understood that if I was taught that explicitly. Learning about co-regulation and regulation with clients, I've had to learn for myself how important that is.
And attunement, yeah, we can define it, practice it, but it has taken me years to understand what attunement means and what co-regulation means, and then to feel confident in slowing the client down or encouraging them to mirror regulation that I'm trying to model for them.
Limits of Therapy Education
Morgen V.: Grad schools reflect what we're discussing, right?
There's that beginning and end, and it, that corporate perspective of let's turn out these degrees and not really create any meaning or nuance to what we're doing. And so what you just shared likely wouldn't have made sense because the learning, like the didactic structure, like the pedagogy, is based on some of the parameters that we're describing in therapy that don't work.
Ashley C.: Yeah. And so there's so much more nuance and specificity to each client that I don't think gets addressed in school. There's too many generalizations. You can speak to this more than I can, 'cause you work in the system. I appreciate that you mentioned I work in higher education. That's how we shy away from conversations.
What happens if I say that and someone hears it and judges me and thinks that I'm judging my whole profession or this whole education piece that's required of our profession? I think that does silence us. Am I not supposed to say that? Am I not supposed to do that? I feel like you and I have developed our own unique therapeutic style over the years, but we started being taught, "This is what you need to do."
And I think that comes from higher education. Going back to our point of having to undo that, we have to critically reflect on, what was I taught? Why was I taught it? And does that apply to my work or my clients? Not only does it sometimes not apply at all, we have to be in our own parts with that, seek consultation and support, and figure out what would be supportive and helpful to specific folks, right?
Assuming that's gonna be relevant for every single population, obviously that's a disservice and, a carve-out of these oppressive systems that we're trying to not perpetuate. We're trying to break down those barriers and walls. So yeah, I think you're speaking to that understanding there's this deep alchemy, right?
Morgen V.: There's these tangible modalities that I'm trained in, like EMDR and the ISS, right? But there's also this alchemy that I create as a person, as a therapist, that I believe every therapist can do as long as there's this ethical framework as well as consultation and community with other people to do reality checking and making sure that it's being practiced in good faith and in an ethical way.
And I think what education also didn't fully prepare me for, or honestly prepare me for at all, was
The Blank Slate Therapist
Morgen V.: how to be human. I went to school 14 years ago. Crazy that it's been that long. But I was taught you are a wall. You don't self-disclose. You don't share with your clients. And to me now thinking about it, that is in direct contrast to what research shows in terms of therapeutic rapport, and the relationship between therapist and client is often the agent of change, and that is a greater predictor of outcomes than a lot of modalities.
It's fascinating to me that my program, and programs still do teach this, we shouldn't be ourselves with clients. We are the professional. We have to portray a certain image. I was not a human with my clients for the first five years of my career, and it's not until recently that I have felt more comfortable being my authentic self with clients, with boundaries and with appropriate use of self-disclosure.
I have had to figure that out on my own and with the help of trusted colleagues. That is not something that education prepared me for at all. And now I look back at the early years of my career and- I wonder what my clients thought about me then. Did I present as really stiff, cold, almost detached? you know me, I'm pretty animated.
This is not who I was then. Did that impact the way my clients perceived therapy or the progress that they perceived to make or not make? that blank slate metaphor, right? How did that impact the therapeutic relationship, how they felt in the room, how safe they might have felt with sharing things, safe or not safe?
Navigating Systems and Authenticity
Ashley C.: I fully hear you. I also have that curiosity. I really don't know. It's hard to know, but maybe intuitively can say that because I have a co-creational perspective now, there's dialogue about what this work is. It's not just like this, "I'm the therapist, and now here is the treatment plan, and this is what we're doing."
That's just not how it is anymore. I feel more steadfast in the way that I'm a therapist now versus back then because I've been able to be more of a human being and not blank slate and not taking tools from the past that feel incongruent to who I am. I'm wondering if you have reflected on or can share what the trajectory of your career looked like.
Because as we're talking now, I'm thinking, I was a student and then a novice therapist, and then I specialized, and then I became an expert in my field. And it wasn't until after that where I realized the importance of being human and our humanity that is not separate from us being a helper. And I'm wondering if your career looked similar or if you were able to bring in your humanness and your authenticity before I did.
Morgen V.: What are your thoughts about that? What was the trajectory you're saying? Could I do that within the systems that I was working in or sh- did I have to switch to private practice? certainly I could not be myself in a system. It's really unfortunate and sad, and I really do feel a lot of deep respect for folks that are within these systems and can figure out a way to create a sustainable career.
It just was not for me. I did spend time in community mental health as well as some nonprofits and then also federally qualified health clinics, so working in primary care and doing medical social work. And honestly, the answer is no. I could not feel like I could be creative. I did not feel like I could be anything that meant any kind of authenticity and showing up as who I am truly because of the systemic problems in those agencies and those places.
I can't be responsible for them. I can't be responsible for those systems, and that's something that I really had to work to undo in my own thinking. And then I had the privilege to move away from those places and create my own private practice. And so it's really been in my own business and connecting with other colleagues like you that I've been able to lean into becoming more human, having more of that perspective of h- of being a human and a helper at the same time, right?
I can really lean into that now because there isn't necessarily something that's holding me back. There's not, these kind of arbitrary expectations being set upon me that unfortunately happen in these larger places, these companies that look at numbers rather than what the true clinical work is, like the rapport building and the things that you mentioned earlier.
Ashley C.: How about you? I tried to be myself working in systems, and I want to echo what you said. I have a deep respect for people who- last longer in systems than I did. I've worked in several different systems, hospitals, jail settings, universities, and I have always been too triggered by things that are not fair.
And even though I've done a lot of work personally in my own therapy, I've also learned a lot in consultation groups or from my colleagues and mentors. I did not function well in systems because of what it activated in me. I think clients deserve me at my best. I'm not my best when I'm working in systems.
Defining Good Therapy
Ashley C.: Some people do it very well. You said you have the privilege to work for yourself and have your own business, and it is a privilege. Not everyone can do that for a lot of different reasons, and I am very privileged to have carved out what my last four years as a social worker have looked like. And the humanness and the authenticity has come bit by bit.
I remember when I left a large system, I was meeting with a colleague, and we were staffing a case, and I said, I can't just tell the client that." And she was like, "Why not? You're being direct." And I was like, "What? I can just say what's on my mind?" And she was like, "Yeah, if it's clinically appropriate, don't you think clients deserve your honesty and your clinical assessment of them?"
And I was like, "Oh, my gosh. What?" my mind was blown, Morgan, how much I had been holding back Potentially to the detriment of work with clients. Having to mask and carefully curate words instead of building the relationship and using the relationship to talk about really hard things, and I'm forever grateful for that colleague.
After that, I've learned it's okay to be myself, and if it's too much or something doesn't land with a client, I can call that out. I can call myself out and repair the relationship if that's what needs to happen, but that is not something that was taught in school- ... or even in a system. and you're currently witness to it.
it still persists. It's not like we're talking about something from 14 years ago, right? But I really appreciate you sharing that. I just got goosebumps because it's like you're so right. There's so many pieces and parts of us that get stifled. That's not fair to us. That's not fair to clients.
It's not what we deserve, and it's not what clients deserve. They deserve to find a space to feel witnessed- and really seen, and that's not possible if I'm seeing 45 clients a week. It's just not. It had to be a curated response. A lot of the work was talk therapy, and it's like, okay, I've got five minutes to write my note.
Gotta move on, and it didn't allow for any real work because of the expectations of the client load, the expectations of the treatment plans, the systemic problems of churning through, right? Oh, they've already done all these appointments. How come they haven't made progress? 'cause they might not trust me.
And 20 sessions is not enough to really get into the incredibly nuanced layers of trauma. Anyway, I'm just feeling appreciative of what you shared so far about that. I think we've had similar paths to get to where we are now. Yeah, I think so too. And I don't think those earlier versions of us were necessarily wrong, but it just goes to show that gap between training and real life and how much we have learned from real life compared to that formal training.
And as we wrap up, I'm wondering if you have one or two points that stick out to you. What does it mean to be a good therapist? What is good therapy? Good therapy is reflective. Good therapy is about the relationship. It's about the relationship, the understanding that each client has their own blueprint for what they need, and that means holding space in different ways for different people.
It's something that's very unique to each individual client. and then again, I know I keep belaboring this, but it's important, is the seeking of consultation and care- ... for the work that I do with clients, that I'm not alone, I'm not siloed, I'm not causing harm. That to me is good therapy.
Consistently understanding my own identity and how that might show up in the room, my own privilege, and the ways that may impact the work that I do. Beautifully said. And for our listeners, for those of you who have been a therapist for a while, I'm wondering if you can reflect on what's something you believed early in your career that doesn't necessarily hold the same weight anymore.
And for those of you who are students or earlier on in your career, I hope that you stay open to learning about yourself and you're able to learn from clients and the interactions you have with clients, and that you don't stay stuck on a specific modality, and that the relationship can be very beautiful and helpful as well.
I hope that whomever is listening right now finds that this information is helpful and that you yourself maybe has a takeaway here. We're looking forward to releasing future episodes. We're gonna be talking with different colleagues about their experiences of what makes a good therapist and why, and who gets to decide that.
What does this all mean? There's tons of podcasts out there about bad therapy, and we talk about what is good therapy and what does it look like beyond evidence-based modalities and that kind of thing, leaning into what it means to have this therapeutic relationship. So thank you for being with us today.
